Diskussjoni:Dom Mintoff

Bħalissa qed naħdem fuq dan l-artiklu u bi ħsiebni nżid miegħu biċċa mhux ħażin. Possibilment għandi nlestih sa l-aħħar ta' din il-ġimgħa. Għandu jservi tajjeb għal min jixtieq jikteb fuq xi politiċi oħra iktar 'l quddiem. --Roderick Mallia 11:58, 17 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

Illejla nipprova ntella' t-tieni parti ta' l-artiklu. Fadalli wkoll il-links x'nagħmel kif ukoll it-tqassim f'sezzjonijiet. Bħas-soltu, kull suġġeriment huwa aċċettat. Saħħiet --Roderick Mallia 12:59, 25 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

Suggestions

Hi Roderick, good job.. you seem to be forming some basis for a social history...though I do have some objections and questions.

• ...bħala Perit u Inġinier Ċiviku ...

don't you call that 'civil' engineer ergo 'civili' vs. 'civiku' = 'civic' ??

• ... Fl-1937 iggradwa B.Sc u sentejn....

Can you really transfer this elliptic form used in English as a fixed expression to Maltese?

• ...ingħata ukoll borża ta' studju għal Rodi..

He was a Rhodes Scholar ... i.e. won a Scholarship funded by the Sir Cecil Rhodes foundation. Your version could misleadingly be interpreted as 'to Rhodes'

I'll check these out. --Roderick Mallia 10:16, 29 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

• għajnuna marzjali

this refers to the Marshall Plan (George Marshall) not the martial plan :))

Thanks for pointing that out! :) --Roderick Mallia 10:16, 29 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

• ...strajk ġenerali u rewwixti madwar il-ġżira fit-28 ta' April.

Wouldn't you rather say 'irvelli' ... isn't rewwixta more something like 'conspiracy'

'conspiracy' would be 'konfoffa' (I checked on the dictionary as well to confirm). But I'll still check the exact meaning of 'irvelli' and 'rewwixti' and use the most appropriate. --Roderick Mallia 10:16, 29 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

Language:

I slightly object to your language although I'm not sure if it's simply acceptible innate lyricism in Maltese. Somehow I tend to choose a treser and more neutral style... as suggested in the NPOV guidelines.

I'll just list my objections.

• ...kienet biċċa xogħol kbira għal Mintoff minħabba l-istat xejn sabiħ li kienu fih il-gżejjer Maltin..
  • biċċa xogħol kbira --> a biċċa xogħol seems to me to be a bit crude!?
  • l-istat xejn sabiħ --> as above
• bl-għajta ta' l-integration --> something else??
• il-knisja f'Malta li kellha poter enormi, --> kbir, influenza kbira.
• irnexxielha tagħmel il-bsaten fir-roti u ħaditha qatta' bla ħabel kontra il-partit laburista.
  • il-bsaten fir-roti, qatta' bla ħabel
• Sar ċaqliq fir-relazjonijiet bejn il-knisja

NPOV is certainly a problem. In fact I am still not 100% satisfied with certain parts. I'll keep your suggestions in mind regarding choice of language and NPOV, however, certain facts cannot be stated differently, eg. the power and influence of the church, the bitter conflicts between the church and MLP and the friendship between the PN and the church. This is also evident in other countries, look at Italy for example. The fascists and the church were quite close while the same cannot be said for the relationship between the church and the communists. --Roderick Mallia 10:06, 29 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

spelling

• ikkunisrata?? ikkunsidrata?

Thanks for pointing that out - I still have to do a major spellcheck on the article. There are probably other spelling mistakes in the article. I'll check everything as soon as I have all the article ready. A major read-through is definitely needed to check spelling, grammar, etc. --Roderick Mallia 09:50, 29 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

questions on facts

• So DM spent the war in Britain - how come wasn't he drafted into the army? or was he?
• If I'm not mistaken DM introduced civil marriage... if this were so I think it would be important to mention it since it is tied to a basic civil liberty.
• As I said this seeems to be a basis for social history due to your emphasis on the overwhelming ifluence of the church. As a whole I would suggest, that you split the article into subsections with one of them being the dispute with the church which continues into the mid eighties.. . Although it seems intricaltely tied to DM one might at some point out-source it in a seperate article.--Joelemaltais 13:23, 28 Ġun 2005 (UTC)
• what are your sources?

I am currently working on the sections in fact as I stated in a previous entry. But I prefer writing the whole article as one big chunk (since most of it comes from translations), than subdivide it as appropriate. An interesting site which I found (WARNING: it's terribly biased in favour of Mintoff) is http://members.tripod.com/~bezzul/INTRO.html I also used the site of the Maltese government http://www.gov.mt As a major source I used the former (I filtered the information of course); it was really useful for dates and such. There are also some publications by the MLP (my family are pro-labour) which I will use to backup the information and fill in the gaps. It's a difficult job keeping the article neutral. I might hop over to the national library one of these days and do some research over there if I'm still not satisfied with the article. --Roderick Mallia 10:28, 29 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

Splitting the topic

Hi,

well the dispute with the church cannot and shouldn't be softened. And DM somehow seems to have consciously moulded a culture and consciousness based on ideal British post-war values (work, freedom of the individual - as opposed medievial catholicism) - well during a period when national states were at their peak - with all their side-effects (protectionism etc..). somehow it might be useful to pursue that track.

There is not doubt that Malta, is so strongly moulded by dm and there is no way out of that. However it might be more advisable to tackle the issues seperately first...you first deal with the definitions ..for instance:

• 'Maltese Catholicism'
  • excommunication (medeieval practice pursued till in the late 60s)
  • no divorce (If I'm not mistaken husband or wife still have to be declared out of their mind as a subterfuge for god's infallibility :P, and if the Neue Züricher Zeitung is correct your kids won't even be baptised after an annullment).
  • ...not to mention other issues..

• 'Work'
  • it's role in society after the reformation - earthly well-beinig as opposed to earthly suffering for a well being beyond ... and for that purpose, paying and donating land/property to the church for indulgence - indulgence trade was still common practice in Malta till the late sixties--- crossref to 'Catholicism')
  • ....

• 'Freedom of the Individual'

• 'Civil Liberties'

(For both it would also be interesting to assess the extent of influence of british liberalism before DM)

To turn back to DM, another interesting aspect is DM's forgein policy .. especially in the light of the cold war. I unfortuantely do not know too much about that.. It just occurs to me now, that I once came across a paper on the subject in the dpt. of political science at FU-Berlin. But finaly the old dude seems to be alive and accessible - maybe somebody might give him a crash course in Wikipedia or fire up a maltese wikisource for him, get him typing and let him spare us speculation...deep throat unveiled lol :P --Joelemaltais 22:59, 29 Ġun 2005 (UTC)

I wondered about that sort of thing. Living in a small place has its advantages! Trevor Żahra emailed me back, I mentioned the wikipedia page, but didn't really ask him to do anything or for any information. Also, can someone translate NPOV for this wikipedia, it would be great :) Saħħa.. S^rl | lblb 01:08, 1 Lul 2005 (UTC)

It also has it's disadvantages - a) you could get some mythomaniac b) you have the typical autobiography subjectivity problem ..So in that case I would suggest wikisource.--Joelemaltais 10:02, 1 Lul 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for not having yet updated the article but I managed to find a book which contains some interesting information which I intend to include. My article lacked information on the early years and the political situation up till 1960 which I intend to fill in. Also, I sectioned the article, with each section making up a decade (eg. 1950 - 1960, 1960 - 1970, etc). I am also taking into consideration your suggestions. I might upload some section by tonight if I manage to get it ready. --Roderick Mallia 5 Lulju 2005 12:54 (UTC)

Information Structure and NPOV

Hi Roderick, the way you're tackling this is the natural way: starting from an topic instance including all related topics in context - however if you extend further you're going have to take the second step soon i.e. the point where you have to split the topics orbiting the main topic into seperate articles. Apart from enhancing granularity and consequeuntly reusability of content, it's also a good exercise in NPOV since you have no other choice but to 'neutralize' the related topics in order to make them compatibile to other contexts. You also open the outsourced topics to a wider audience - if I'm not interested in Mintoff but am Interested in Religion and Society for instance from an ethnological as opposed to a political point of view. In short you have pluralism, contestation and consequently higher quality. And I think that's the strongest point.

It somehow always fascinates me to see this cognitive process (reducing 'Information' through decontextualization in order to increase 'structure' ≅ 'knowledge') reflected in a wiki. But it's actually the first time that the relation between 'knowledge' and npov seems so obvious. I'll try to do some more work myself sometime next week ... am so terribly busy at the moment. Cheers--Joelemaltais 5 Lulju 2005 22:26 (UTC)

Traduzzjonijiet

It-traduzzjoni Maltija għal "architect and civil engineer" hija sempliċiment "perit".

Artiklu propogandistiku

Editjajt dan l-artiklu biex kemm jista' jkun ma jibqax qisu biċċa propoganda Laburista mimlija lagħqiżmu għal Mintoff. Mhux għax irnexxieli għal kollox ...

Tista' tgħid min int? Billi tħalli kumment anonimu ma tantx tgħin. Għalissa erġajt ħallejt l-artiklu kif kien qabel il-modifiki tiegħek. Qabel taqta' parti sostanzjali mill-kontenut, ta' min jiddiskutiha fil-paġna ta' diskussjoni ta' l-artikli konċernat. Modifiki żgħar jistgħu isiru mingħajr l-ebda problema, imma meta jkun hemm tibdil konsiderevoli, dan għandu jiġi diskuss qabel. Saħħa --Roderick Mallia 21:39, 12 Ottubru 2005 (UTC)

TAGHMEL xi differenza inhix Ganni jew Peppu ghal hafna inezattezzi storici (ez. li l-Partit Laburista nehha l-plural voting fl-1947 jew li ma kienx ikkunsidrat fid-diskussjonijiet ta' l-Indipendenza) jew urban legends Laburisti (p.ez. li n-Nazzjonalisti ppruvaw ixahhmu lil Deputat Laburista biex jaqsam il-Kamra)? Apparti hekk hemm hafna gudizzji suggettivi hafna li qatt ma misshom jidhru f'xi haga li tippretendi li hi "enciklopedija". -- Ganni (jew Peppu)

Forsi taf tittieħed iktar bis-serjetà jekk tiffirma b'isem. Utenti anonimi huwa bosta u mhux kollha ta' min jafdahom peress li ħafna minnhom huma vandali (kellna xi attentati ta' vandaliżmu riċenetement). Napprezza jekk tagħmel lista ta' dawn l-ineżatezzi li qed issemmi ħalli nivverifikawhom. Ovvjament, fejn hemm ħażin nirranġawh bil-qalb kollha. Il-Wiki mhux qiegħda hemm biex neloġjaw lin-nies imma biex nsemmu dak li hu minnu. Ftakar ukoll li kulħadd jista' jagħmel żball u minflok nieħdu n-nies bil-herra, tajjeb li nuruhom fejn ma naqblux magħhom u niddiskutu d-differenzi. Nittama li nerġa' nisma' mingħandek. Is-Sliem --Roderick Mallia 09:18, 20 Ottubru 2005 (UTC)

Kummenti

"Is-slogan ta' Mintoff, "Malta l-ewwel u qabel kollox" beda jintuża f'mod frekwenti ħafna fil-kitbiet u d-diskorsi ta' Mintoff ta' dak iż-żmien." ---- "Malta l-ewwel u qabel kollox" ma kienx is-slogan ta' Mintoff iżda kien intuża ferm qabel min-Nazzjonalisti litteralment. Per eżempju, għandi librett bit-titlu È morto il primo ministro li nħareġ fl-1950 mal-mewt ta' Enrico Mizzi, fejn f'artiklu bil-Malti n-Nazzjonalista Dott. Vincenzo Maria Pellegrini kien uża l-istess kliem ad verbatim "Malta l-ewwel u qabel kollox". Probbabilment b'aktar riċerka nsib l-istess frażi ripetuti spiss f'materjal Nazzjonalista. Meta jingħad "ta'" ssir attribuzzjoni impliċità lil Mintoff bħala l-awtur ta' dak il-motto.

Kien hemm ukoll organizzazzjoni anglofila faxxista mmexxija mill-Kaptan Frederick Olaf Sammut li kienet tuża l-istess espressjoni bl-Ingliż fil-pubblikazzjoni tagħha Marching On!. Din l-organizzazzjoni kien jisimha Malta Union of Fascists u suppost kella kuntatti mal-faxxisti tar-Renju Unit immexxija minn Sir Oswald Mosley. Probbabilment, il-frażi kienet użata min-Nazzjonalisti ferm qabel. Niddubita kemm l'ebda Nazzjonalista wara xi ħamsin sena storja ta' Nazzjonaliżmu li għaddew sa l-1930 ma ħariġx bl-istess frażi.

Ta' min jikkonsulta l-ktieb tal-Professur Joseph Pirotta, it-titlu xi ħaġa Fortress Colony. Ma niftakrux bl-eżatt għax mhux qiegħed għandi, u hemm ktieb tal-Professur Henry Frendo b'titlu simili. Fil-ktieb eċċellenti tiegħi, 3 volumi bir-raba' wieħed in attesa, il-Professur Pirotta jesponi kif il-Perit Mintoff kien akkużat mill-Partit Nazzjonalista li kien qed jisraq termini Nazzjonalista bi skopijiet differenti. Dan kien għall-ewwel snin wara l-gwerra, u fi ftit snin wara ħarġet l-idea Mintoffjana ta' l-Integration li ma nafx kemm taqbel ma' motto tipo "Malta l-ewwel u qabel kollox".

Jonqos ukoll li jissemmgħu ċertu episodji, bħal meta fl-1948 (id-data forsi żbaljata, mhux diffiċli nikkonfermaw data korretta) Mintoff ġie milqugħ minn grupp ta' żgħażagħ Laburisti f'xi riċeviment f'San Pawl il-Baħar fejn ġie kantat l-Innu Bandiera Rossa mad-dħul ta' Mintoff fil-post u mingħajr Mintoff la jwaqqaf tali xogħol u mingħajr ma jitlob skuża ta' l-aġir. Voldiri faċli niktbu li l-Partit Laburista ta' Mintoff issieħeb fis-Socialist International li suppost hi anti-kommunista, u nonqsu milli niktbu fatti bħal din li semmejt u affarijiet oħra bħall-honoris causa lil Caucaescu (forsi ktibta ħażin) ta' fama qattiela u kommunista mill-kbar.

Ta min jgħid ukoll, li jekk se nitkellmu dwar il-kriżi politiko-reliġjuża jridu jingħadu ċertu affarijiet ukoll, li għadhom validi sa llum. L-ewwelnett, l-iskomunika hija xi ħaġa li għada tista' ssir fil-Knisja Kattolika. Il-kummenti rigward Knisja Kattolika medjevali huma wisq parzjali fl-opinjoni tiegħi. Dik propaganda u xejn aktar, u jekk hawn irridu nkunu imparzjali għandna noqgħod attenti għall-aġġettivi. Il-kliem "medjevali" kien jidher fl-agħar fuljetti propagandistiċi Laburisti u anti-klerikali in ġenerali f'sens dispreġġativ u żgur mhux deskrittiv. Naqbel li ċertu passi kienu estremi, iżda l-kundanna kienet leċita per eżempju. Tajjeb nsemmu fatti bħall-fatt li s-soċjaliżmu, u Mintoff kien jiddikkjara ruħu soċjalista, kien ikkundannat mill-Knisja Kattolika Rumana sa mis-seklu dsatax, ferm qabel ma deher fuq wiċċ l-art Mintoff u forsi l-ġenituri tiegħu. Allura meta xi ħadd, jaf bil-kundanna u jibqa' għaddej, mhux leċitu li jistenna riperkussjonijiet dixxiplinari? Wara kollox, il-Partit Laburista Mintoffjan dikjaratament soċjalista kien ried jgħaddiha li tista' tkun Kattoliku u soċjalista. Le skużi, dak qerq u ipokresija? X'Kattoliku hu? Kattoliku meta tħaddan ħsieb ikkundannat mill-Knisja Kattolika Rumana għal bosta raġunijiet u meta l-kundanni saru għall-ewwel darba u baqgħu kontinwi sa minn qabel ma tkun twellidt int? Dan każ jew ta' tqarrieq, jew ta' ipokresija, jew ta' injoranza. Ħafna propaganda Laburista kienet tgħid li hi mhix kontra r-reliġjon u l-Knisja, iżda kienet propaganda ta' partit soċjalista. Kien hemm bosta fatti oħrajn f'dan id-diżgwidi, li kienu jeżistu sa minn qabel Mintoff kien attiv fil-Partit Laburista. Fattur inkwetanti kien il-fatt li Mintoff u ta' qablu kien jidhru wisq favur l-Ingliżi, li lill-Knisja mhux dejjem kien jinżlila. Ħaġa wisq agħar però, huwa l-fatt li anke fix-xena Laburista meta Mintoff kien għadu mhux prominenti, Mintoff kien magħruf li kien aktar estrem u anti-klerikali minn dawk li diġà kellhom problemi mal-Knisja peress li kienu soċjalisti. Per eżempju, spiss il-Partit Laburista pre-Mintoffjan kien jgħid li hu lanqas hu soċjalista! Madanakollu attivisti tiegħu kienu preżenti bit-tixjir tal-bandiera l-ħamra Kommunista fl-inċident tal-Pentekoste. Propaganda pro-Sovjetika u soċjalista, kommunista u anarkista kienet titqassam ukoll minn nies li kienu jimmilitaw fl-istess moviment uffiċjalment jew le. Ma ninsewx ukoll, li Manwel Dimech kien famuż għall-anti-klerikaliżmu tiegħu u sa kien sar Protestant. L-istess Manwel Dimech kien igglorifikat minn Mintoff. Ta min jgħid, li ġew bosta materjali f'idejja li juru anti-klerikaliżmu spikkat. Fosthom librett miktub minn Mintoff u għandikun imqassam lin-nies ta' ġewwa, fejn Mintoff japplawdi jew jiskuża l-vjolenza u jattakka b'qawwa lill-Knisja għax ikkunddannat l-istess vjolenza. Dan fatt indikattiv ta' kif Mintoff ma kienx jiddejjaq mill-vjolenza.

U hawn nagħmel punt rigward il-PN u l-Knisja. Ħafna propaganda Laburista f'dan ir-rigward hija bir-rispett kollu tad-daħk. Skużi, il-PN kien mibni fuq prinċipji Kattoliċi ferm qabel ma nħolom il-Partit Laburista. Kien magħmul minn nies Kattoliċi li kienu Kattoliċi u attivi f'dak is-sens soċjalment u politikament. Madanakollu, anke l-istess PN kellu l-inkwiet mal-Knisja! Kemm Fortunato Mizzi u kemm Enrico Mizzi kellhom xi diżgwidi mal-Kleru, b'ta' l-aħħar jattakkaw Isqof partikulari għax skond hu kien lagħqi ta' l-Ingliżi kbir. Kien hemm problemi ħabba La Giovine Malta per eżempju. Din kienet organizzazjoni ta' żgħażagħ nazzjonalisti mwaqqfa minn Fortunato Mizzi fil-bidu tas-seklu għoxrin li fost oħrajn kienet tinkludi lil Sir Arturo Mercieca u lil Enrico Mizzi. Tort ta' l-isem biss kien hemm l-inkwiet, ħasbuhom xi nies li jxaqilbu lejn l-ideat anti-klerikali u liberali tal-La Giovine Italia li kienet imsemmiha ukoll bħala bejta tal-mażuni. L-imsemmija żgur ma kienx ta' dak it-tip, fil-fatt il-kwistjoni ma damitx tkarkar wara li ftehmu rigward il-problema. Kif ukoll, l-Arċisqof Gonzi kien wieħed mill-ewwel membri tal-Partit Laburista, għandikun sa kien elett fis-Senat f'isem l-istess partit! Skond ċertu rapporti, insejt f'liema ktieb fil-pussess tiegħi, kien telaq l-istess partit għax bħal oħrajn beda jara bosta elementi soċjalisti u kommunisti deħlin. Punt interessanti f'dan ir-rigward, kien li l-Partit Laburista pre-Mintoffjan kien l-ewwel partit f'Malta li qal li hu ispirat mill-prinċipi tad-demokrazija Kristjana!

Nirritornaw direttament għal Mintoff. Punt ieħor ta' interess, u jien kelli l-opportunità nara testi oriġinali relatat ma' dan il-punt, kien il-fatt li Mintoff jew il-Partit Laburista bih bħala kap, kien qed jittratta ma' l-Italja biex jikkunsidra l-integrazzjoni ta' Malta ma' l-Italja. Dan wara li falla l-pjan ta' l-integrazzjoni mar-Renju Unit u qabel l-Indipendenza. Interessanti din, għax l-istess Mintoff tgħidx kemm kien jgħid kontra n-Nazzjonalisti għax skond hu kienu lagħqin tat-Taljani. Apparti li kien faħħar bil-kbir lil Nerik Mizzi ma' mewtu, skond il-propaganda anglofila u laburista l-akbar lagħqi tat-Taljani u faxxista ukoll, Mintoff sa kien qed jikkunsidra l-integrazzjoni ma' l-Italja. Dik kienet xi ħaġa li fil-programmi Nazzjonalisti qatt ma dehret, u żgur mhux meta deher il-faxxiżmu fl-Italja, Mintoff però ma kellux problemi jikkunsidrhaa mingħajr ma jkun jaf il-pubbliku. Dan il-fatt kien rappurtat mid-Dottor Victor Ragonesi, li kien is-Segretarju Ġenerali tal-Partit Nazzjonalista fi żmien Dott. Giorgio Borg Olivier. Kien rappurtat fuq Il-Mument is-sena l-oħra. U min diskursata personali, l-istess Dott. Ragonesi qal kif Borg Olivier sar jaf b'dan il-pjan Laburista mill-Ingliżi meta kienu qed jittrattaw għall-Indipendenza. Borg Olivier kien tbellaħ b'din il-ħaġa, u l-Ingliżi tbellħu bir-reazzjoni ta' Borg Olivier, li qal li hu qatt ma kien se jaċċatta tali soluzzjoni.

Hemm ħafna punti oħrajn x'nista' nsemmi, fosthom l-istorja tal-Ħelsien miġjub minn min ried l-integrazzjoni mar-Renju Unit. Punt pożittiv rigward Mintoff kien il-fatt tar-Repubblika, li kien appoġġat mill-maġġoranza tan-Nazzjonalisti (apparti l-ostinazzjoni ta' Borg Olivier, li jien għadni ma fhimtx) eletti.

Għal dak kollu li għidt għandi referenzi minn materjal fil-pussess tiegħi jew materjal ta' dominju pubbliku jew fil-pussess ta' konoxxenti tiegħi. Bħalissa però qiegħed għand ommi, fejn m'għandix ktieb wieħed fuq dan is-suġġett.

Edric Micallef Figallo 22:02, 16 Awissu 2006 (UTC)

Intervent

Ma nafx mod iehor kis inkun nista nikkuntatjak allura qed niktiblek hawn. Meta Mintoff dahal l-isptar f'ottubru tal-2011, skont it=testijiet li sabu instaghab li kien iddijanjostkat bi Pnemonia : http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20111005/local/Mintoff-in-hospital-with-pneumonia.387769 . Kundizzjoni fil-pulmun.

Parentezi zghira ohra hi li nhar il-hdax ta' Frar tal-2012 il-Perit Mintoff rega ddahhal l-isptar b'infezzjoni harxa f'sidru u bi problemi f'qalbu. : http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120211/local/mintoff-hospitalised-with-heart-problems.406293 u gie rrilaxxat fl-20 ta' Frar.

Hu ddahhal l-isptar ghal darba ohra fit-18 ta' Lulju 2012 fl-ITU. http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120718/local/mintoff-admitted-to-hospital.429109 u gie rilaxxat fil-5 ta' Awwissu ghal gheluq is-96 sena tieghu. —Dan il-kumment preċedenti li ma ġiex iffirmat, ġie miżjud minn ‎Cavewiki (diskussjoni • kontribuzzjonijiet)

Bħalissa l-paġna tinsab protetta sabiex nevitaw li utenti anonimi jivvandalizzaw il-paġna. Billi għadek utent ġdid dan il-blokk jgħodd għal utenti bħalek. Dan il-perjodu se jiskadi fit-28 ta' Awwissu, fejn hemmhekk tkun tista' timmodifika l-paġna. —Chrisportelli (d) 13:10, 25 Awwissu 2012 (UTC)